29. Jon Strassner on sustainable interior design

Audio Transcript:

[00:00:07.130] – Garr Punnett

Welcome back, masters of the Multiusiverse. My name is Garr Punnett. Today’s, another good episode. We come with Jon Strassner, Chief Sustainability Officer for the American Society for Interior Designers. We get to really unpack what goes into the design mentality. How do we actually design the places that we work, live, and play? How do we make them more sustainable? We get to really unpack that and also trying to rethink the white box that’s towards the end. Check it out there. If you have any more questions or you want to join us for more podcasts, check us out at Rheaply.com/multi-usiverse-podcast.

[00:00:48.110] – Garr Punnett

Jon, thank you so much for joining us today. We’ve got Jon Strassner here, Chief Sustainability Officer of the American Society for Interior Designers, as well as, rarely on this podcast do we have another podcaster from Break Some Dishes. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:01:10.310] – Jon Strassner

Hey, thanks for having me. I thought everybody had a podcast.

[00:01:16.470] – Garr Punnett

Not our guests, which is great because we get to pull from the knowledge of the sustainability world and then not everybody has a sustainability podcast. So this is excellent. Can you tell us first then, though, where did the title come from for Breaks Some Dishes?

[00:01:32.270] – Jon Strassner

Well, Verda and I were-we’ve known each other for probably 20 years or so, and we were having breakfast one day in New York City and really got to talking about.. We just wound up talking about sustainability. She knew that it was something that I was really passionate about, I was working on. And Verda was turning into this designer who was starting to get a little bit impatient with the industry. And she said, I want to start doing some saber rattling. I want to start calling out designers. I think we needed to do better, and we don’t have a lot of time to figure it out. And so we both decided that we would start to do these showroom events, these industry in-person showroom events. And we said, hey, listen, Verda, you be the voice of design, I’ll be the voice of sort of like the disruptor. We’ll get a subject matter expert to join us. There’ll be three of us, and we’ll arrange multiple in-person events at different manufacturers’ showrooms. And our goal will be to create some awareness, to identify those people that are doing some pretty cool things and start talking about it.

[00:02:54.410] – Jon Strassner

So we want to educate the design community, but at the same time, we want to inspire them. And so I was like, let’s just break some damn dishes. We’ll go in the kitchen. I had a really good friend of mine who always said, sometimes you got to go in the kitchen and break some damn dishes if you want to get anything done. I guess it’s like saying to make a good omelet, you got to break some eggs.

[00:03:15.800] – Garr Punnett

Exactly.

[00:03:16.670] – Jon Strassner

So we’re just a little bit more destructive than that.

[00:03:19.950] – Garr Punnett

This is the cook on the eggs, and then the designer on very well designed dishes that you just need to smash maybe every once in a while.

[00:03:27.410] – Jon Strassner

Right!

[00:03:29.010] – Garr Punnett

I loved what you said there about shaking things up, feeling maybe some stagnation from sustainability, from the design end. That’s not just on the shoulders of designers, nor is it on the shoulders of any one particular, probably role in our complex supply chain of workplace design and remodeling and ultimately then living in these working environments. Where does that I mean, to jump right into it, where does that sort of come from in terms of the design world, where you will feel there is some stagnation, where you feel like you’re always catching up and waiting for the next thing to try to advance your industry? How is that sort of playing out in the design world?

[00:04:15.410] – Jon Strassner

I think that that’s a really complex question, because I feel like we struggle with this conversation on so many different levels. Sustainability or climate change is a really systemic problem, right? And that means it doesn’t matter what you talk about. Sustainability is there. And so a lot of people think that there’s really nothing they can do. Right? It’s done. Things are in motion, and I’m one person. What can I possibly do? So it’s a really difficult conversation to have. And I think on the interior design side of things, we’re very guilty of being-guilty is not the right word, but the challenge is that interior design is a fashion-driven industry.

[00:05:10.730] – Garr Punnett

Totally.

[00:05:11.160] – Jon Strassner

We are about trends, and we are about advancements. And honestly, design has always been very superficial and material. And what I mean by material, I don’t mean that it doesn’t mean anything or that it’s materialistic. I mean it’s material. It’s about what materials we use in the spaces we occupy and how all of that affects people, the people that inhabit those spaces or play in those spaces. And so designers, if you look at man, it’s so funny. I just did some research on change because I think the fundamental issue is change. We’ve been talking about sustainability and climate change in the building industry since I’ve been in it, okay? And the building industry still represents 40% of the global carbon emissions. We haven’t moved that needle in spite of all the sustainability work that’s been going on for the last 20-25 years, which isn’t that kind of mind blowing? Like, we haven’t been able to move that needle, which I think is horribly frustrating for people. Right?

[00:06:44.450] – Garr Punnett

This is a raw question that I don’t have fully formatted, but there seems to be a catchup between action and probably the science of understanding what can be done. When we talk about materials, when we talk about these complex supply chains of the physical things that get placed in our in our working or play environments in these 20-25 years, where we’re maybe finally catching up to the science of, hey, these materials aren’t great, and we need to actually start designing and thinking about these materials a little bit differently, is their progress? Have we seen sort of the the waves start to catch a little bit more in the last five years than it has in the last 20? What do you all see in that interior design space?

[00:07:30.190] – Jon Strassner

You have to see progress. Right. You have to see better understanding of materials. You have to understand that there’s more transparency now for manufacturers. We’re starting to understand the supply chain a lot better than we ever did. And the more we understand it, the more complex that conversation becomes, right? So you’re always like, Damn, I got to do more. I got to do more. But it’s a funny story. So I always talk about climate change and sustainability. I always talk about this conversation, and I use the same anecdote. I have a really good friend of mine who was in Mexico City on business, and after dinner one night, he got mugged. And when he told me this story, he said, yeah, somebody came up from behind and grabbed me in a bear hug. And my first reaction was to laugh because I thought it had to be a friend or somebody who was coming up behind me and just, like, giving me a bear hug until I got picked up and thrown on my shoulder. And then my wallet and watch and all that stuff got. Then I knew I was being mugged. I’ve always used that as an example of we don’t ever think it’s going to happen to us.

[00:08:43.110] – Jon Strassner

We grew up we grew up not talking about the planet. It wasn’t something that was vulnerable. It wasn’t something we ever had to worry about. I grew up probably never saying the word planet, let alone we have to save the planet. Who would ever conceive that the planet would need saving, right? And I think what happens is I just read about this the other day and I got really excited about it because there’s a book that I read a long time ago and I brought it back out of the mothballs and I dusted it off because I was thinking about why can’t we change our behavior? Because I was reading about green technology. I’m going down a tangent here, but that’s why you have editors. We have green technology, which is really exciting. But the thing that makes me tap the brakes a little bit on green technology is it gives us a get out of jail free card. Well, I may not have to really recycle because somebody is going to come out with a piece of technology. I don’t have to worry about my carbon because we have these carbon capture technologies now that are really going crazy.

[00:09:43.640] – Jon Strassner

And Iceland has got the Omega Project or whatever that thing is called, and green technology can make us feel like we don’t have to change, right? And so I was thinking about this and I pulled that book out, and the book says there’s actually something called ego defense. It’s something Sigmund Freud he discovered however many hundred years ago or whatever, and it’s one of his premises that still survives today. And what an ego defense is it’s this: so say for example, you’re overweight, you don’t diet, you don’t exercise, and you smoke in cigarettes, and you get chest pains one day. So you go to the doctor, and you’re in the doctor’s office, and you’re terrified because you got chest pains. You know, you’re out of shape. You’re really unhealthy. And the doctor says, hey, listen, here’s the deal, man. I mean, you’re just a walking heart attack. It’s going to happen any day now. So either you go home and you start eating salads and you give up the cigarettes and you start walking around the block, or you’re going to be back in my office, and we’re going to be doing open heart surgery, and I’m going to be putting stents in and everything else.

[00:10:50.960] – Jon Strassner

And you’re scared shitless. So you go home and you tell you, no steaks for me. I’m going to eat healthy now. And Garr, guess what? You do it for like a week, and then you’re like, hey, I’m fine. I’m fine. Because in the back of your head you got an option still is open heart surgery. And maybe a more relatable version is just to say you go to the dentist office, and the dentist says, hey, look how’s the dental health? Are you flossing regularly? And you lie to your teeth and you say, yeah, absolutely I am. And you go over in the dentist office and you start flossing because you’re like, shit, man. Oh, God. Gingivitus by God, not for this guy. And you’re flossing like a maniac. And again, a week later you’re like, back to your old routines, ego defenses. And I think that’s what keeps nine out of ten people from changing. Nine out of ten. That’s pretty dramatic.

[00:11:45.790] – Garr Punnett

That is pretty dramatic. Where does that play into where does that play into the mindset of design then? Because I’m curious then how that sort of at least the best compliment I ever probably received was that I think design adjacent because I love design. Yeah, exactly. I love it. I think about it, but I’m not it. And there are professionals out there that consistently can deliver on well designed spaces, clothing, all of that. But what I do love about whenever I’m diving into change and design is parameters. And understanding parameters then can lead to other creativities. Now, that really what we’re getting to, which is maybe we can’t design our way out of this because we keep thinking there’s a solution. We’re probably going to find a solution. We’re probably going to innovate our way out of this. Where does that come into with essentially your training? The American Society for Interior Designers. How do they approach sustainability? How are we all wrapping this into that ideology shift of there’s no innovation out of this? We do need to keep thinking about this currently differently in order to get into where we need to go.

[00:13:02.490] – Garr Punnett

How does that all sort of play into this?

[00:13:04.890] – Jon Strassner

Well, I said it a few seconds ago. Design. We have to design our way out of it. All these problems are design problems. All of these material issues are design issues. All of these product problems. I think one of the trigger points in the world of interior design was when we started talking about embodied carbon, right? So that was kind of a game changer for interior designers who realized, wow, all of the product that we’re putting into these buildings. We know we have operational carbon emissions that are emitted from these huge buildings and skyscrapers, but, wow, now we know we have embodied carbon emissions that come from all of the products and the furniture and everything that goes inside of these buildings. So I think that’s what now has designers thinking, okay, now we’ve got something that we can act on and we can measure for results. The designers always have a problem or always have a challenge in that they are working with a client, and so the client may not always. It’s so funny when you talk about design, because you can talk to designers who are brilliant and are working on these amazing projects because they have the perfect client who wants to work with them and wants to listen to them and will eventually come to an amazing project.

[00:14:42.570] – Jon Strassner

But there’s also on the other side of that spectrum, there’s tenant improvement projects, where you’ve got a building landlord that doesn’t want to spend anything and just wants to keep churning. So it goes back to what I said earlier. It’s a really complicated conversation, and a lot of times well, let me just tell you what we’re doing at the American Society of Interior Designers. We’re really stepping into this conversation, and we’re trying to tell our members, hey, first of all, this is a journey, okay? We don’t have all the answers for you. We’re not professing to be experts in the conversation. There really are no experts in this conversation. And the biggest challenge we have is when we wait too long for our voice, because we feel like, I don’t want to be wrong, so I’m just not going to say anything.

[00:15:34.040] – Garr Punnett

We’re not going to break any dishes. We don’t want to get too crazy.

[00:15:36.760] – Jon Strassner

I don’t want to break any dishes. I’m not a dish breaker. I get that. I get that! But, we want people to understand that it’s a journey, and we want them to come with us on the journey, and we’ll all figure it out together. For us, we want to make sustainability as inclusive and as accessible as we possibly can. And that’s not always that easy.

[00:16:02.000] – Garr Punnett

Yeah, it’s not. I think when we’re talking about complex problems and sustainability now, I would love to actually then break it down into what the rough decision process or chain looks like for decision-making that goes into a workspace. I think that’s actually something that took me a long time at Rheaply to really understand, oh, this isn’t just the architect, it’s not just the property manager, not just the building owner, that there’s five other identities in there that kind of go into this decision making process. Could you highlight some of those steps for our audience so they go, oh wow, there’s so many people involved in making the space that I find myself in, ready for me to work, ready for me to play. Could you highlight some of those stages and decision making process in that?

[00:16:52.770] – Jon Strassner

You have contract furniture dealers that get involved in this process. You have countless manufacturers that get involved in this process. You have an entire design team, right? You’ve got the design principal who’s got the vision and is giving the design team the kind of direction and leadership they need to make the right product specification decisions and things like that. But the biggest challenge you’re going to have anytime you’re trying to work on a project of this stature where you’re trying to really have a low impact on the environment, if you don’t program it at the very beginning, you’re going to be in a lot of trouble. I think some of the biggest challenges are if you decide too far down the path that you want this to be a LEED project or a well project, it will never happen. You’ve got to program that in from the very beginning and you’ve got to get ownership on board, right? I don’t even know if I could. I mean, if you look at something as simple as a boardroom yes, the number of manufacturers that are involved in that, the number of subcontractors that are involved in that.

[00:18:10.830] – Jon Strassner

And I think one of the big challenges is you can be an interior designer. You can specify, say you want to specify a conference room table that has PVC free banding around the edges and you can specify it and you can have it in the RFP. And at the 11th hour, you could have a dealer come into that thing and say, hey, I could probably get you a table with PVC free banding. It’s going to cost you. I can probably save you 10% on this conference room table if you let me go with my supplier. Don’t worry. I mean, come on, PVC, it’s all over the place. And so little things like that happen over and over and over again. Right, right. So it’s very easy to blame designers because at the end of the day, it’s their project. But a lot of people get in there and have an impact. Leave a footprint.

[00:19:16.990] – Garr Punnett

Leave a footprint. A lot of voices and a lot of economic tweaking of saying, hey, 10% here, 10% there.

[00:19:24.850] – Jon Strassner

And I know I didn’t give you all the stages that you’re probably looking for, but to me, more impactful than all the stages is just all of the people.

[00:19:36.950] – Garr Punnett

That’s exactly right. It’s the voices, it’s the amount of decisions that go into it and companies and those economic pressures of saying, hey, you know what, we’re working together on this project and five other projects, so I can maybe save you even more on these other projects. So there’s a lot of decision making in there that is done at scale. I’d love to get to your sort of AHA moment in this with sustainability. We referenced it in the beginning, but what does that look like for you? When you really started connecting the dots on sustainability, your own passion for it, what were those moments like? Where were you like, hey, something’s broken, and then really starting to start to pursue that?

[00:20:20.710] – Jon Strassner

I think that, like I said before, it’s definitely a journey. And for me, I would tell you that it probably started. I was working for a manufacturer named Human Scale and I had the opportunity to work really closely. I was doing workplace strategy for Human Scale. I was working really closely with their Chief Sustainability Officer who was working on projects and initiatives. And we would work together and I would kind of take the work that she was doing and distill it into a language that we could share with the industry so that it had value. I think the biggest challenge a lot of companies have is how do we share what we’re doing for the environment without looking like we’re doing it just to market it? And so you really have to try hard to be authentic and that takes work. You can over-market and really turn people off. And so, I had an opportunity to join a group called Next Wave Plastics and it was a group of manufacturers at the time, maybe ten or eleven, that decided to address all the issues and problems out there to address ocean plastic. Because we knew that the oceans were filling up fast with plastic.

[00:21:51.550] – Jon Strassner

There was a group out there called the Five Gyres Institute, which was producing some alarming research that showed how fast we were filling the garbage. And so these manufacturers said, listen, if your bathtub is filling up with water, you don’t freak out and start bailing it. You go to the faucet and you turn it off. So that was our mantra. You got to turn off the faucet. And so we were working together, find a value, a manufacturing value to what we called ocean-bound plastic. So we thought that if we could make that a valuable material like PT plastic, people would save it before it got to the ocean and they would bring it to recycle centers. Right now the biggest problem with recycling plastic is that it has to be sorted so carefully. A manufacturer can’t take seven different kinds of plastic and melt them all together and magically make something. So I think that that was my aha moment when I started working with these other manufacturers. We actually went to Bali one year to speak at the Our Oceans conference. And while I was at that conference, I had an opportunity to meet a lot of NGOs that were doing amazing things.

[00:23:25.120] – Jon Strassner

And that was my moment when I said, wow, we are really in bad shape and we got to figure this out. And I think that I decided then that I’m not an environmental engineer, not an engineer, and I consider myself a really smart person, but I’d better figure it out. Like, somebody’s got to I’m not going to hurt anything by trying to figure it out. So that was sort of my AHA moment, was being surrounded by these NGOs, people that were doing amazing things to try to do what they could.

[00:24:08.590] – Garr Punnett

Yes, I love that. Speaks to, again, a little bit, my AHA moment. And I’ve said this before, it was fashion based, and so it was clothing based, where it was like, wait a second, I’m supposed to throw this away. I thought someone could repair this or something. And so for me, that was a big moment, but again, material based.

[00:24:31.110] – Jon Strassner

So fashion is your trigger.

[00:24:34.070] – Garr Punnett

It was at the time. I’ve since gone the other way and said pure minimalist and gone the black T shirt, simply jeans route, which has been fun for a little bit.

[00:24:46.170] – Jon Strassner

The pandemic helped that. It did.

[00:24:48.540] – Garr Punnett

Definitely did. It was like, oh, this is totally appropriate for being at my desk at home. Oh, yeah.

[00:24:54.350] – Jon Strassner

Pants with drawstrings and elastics. Perfect.

[00:24:57.390] – Garr Punnett

Exactly. How do we help others start to have those moments where you all, as designers have such that and I’m sure this is something that you bring to your constituency of saying, hey, this is how you approach this topic. It can be sensitive to some, but there’s probably some amount of savings somewhere. There are ways to think about reuse, there’s ways to think about this from a sustainability standpoint. How do you approach that? How do you teach your constituency or not teach, but maybe offer conversational points or solutions for, hey, I think my client might be interested, but I’m nervous to bring this up to them. Is there are there talking points for that?

[00:25:43.390] – Jon Strassner

That’s one of the tools that we’re trying to create for our members. It’s sort of an interesting industry in that on the commercial side, the designers are very far ahead of where we are on the residential side. And everybody has a slightly different theory on how that happens or why that is. I think it’s because if you are on the commercial side, your client is very much public and they can’t really hide, and so their behavior is very much on display. But when we go home at night, we’re very much anonymous. And so, Garr, you don’t know if I have low-flow shower heads or not. You can assume because I’m concerned that I do, but I might have this massive rainfall shower head in my bathroom, and I may take 30 minutes showers and you’ll never know. So on the residential side, the clients aren’t driving that conversation like they have been on the commercial side. Right, but we specify, boy, last year we specified designers specified about $350,000,000,000 worth of product and about $120,000,000,000 of that was residential furniture. How much of that do you think was office furniture?

[00:27:24.750] – Garr Punnett

That’s our world and it’s a lot. I know that.

[00:27:29.390] – Jon Strassner

Can I tell you that it’s not even a quarter of the residential furniture?

[00:27:36.290] – Garr Punnett

Whoa. Okay. That’s terrifying seeing in our world how much we see. But that’s insane.

[00:27:43.750] – Jon Strassner

Yeah, we just assume that all those buildings and skyscrapers are packed full of furniture. Right. And we just assume that the commercial side of things is just there’s just a lot of residential designers out there specifying a lot of residential furniture.

[00:28:04.410] – Garr Punnett

The anonymity is that’s fascinating. I think you’re on to something there with it’s interesting. We actually see that a little bit inversely on our end, where we’ve got some company cohort friends and they’re all focused on actually in the fashion world, there might be in the fashion world where it’s kind of the opposite. They’re focused on people’s clothing, which is very much somebody’s identifying their identity is based in their clothing and they’re showing the world, this is what I care about. So they want to talk about how maybe the shirt they’re wearing is sustainable use from the next material, whatever it might be. And on our end, we tend to focus on company operations and we tend to focus on increasing the utilization rate of some furniture or some sort of operation that allows for reuse, not the most marketable topic. And so it’s fascinating where that’s something I hadn’t thought about of the different inverses, even within an organization where commercially it’s probably not the most marketable to talk about how you weren’t reusing your commercial chairs as much as the public would like. But boy, are they going to talk about that plastic packaging.

[00:29:21.250] – Garr Punnett

It is interesting where there’s a couple marketing related decision making around. What do we talk about with sustainability?

[00:29:29.430] – Jon Strassner

Yeah, we have 23,000 members here at ASID, right, and 45 chapters across the country. And so we know that we can create a critical mass in this conversation. We just need to get everybody collected and directed and all of us in step moving in the right direction. And that’s what we’re really trying to do with our sustainability program. We’re trying to create we’ve already created these principles of design excellence so that anytime that ASID talks about an amazing design project or amazing space, we’re consistently using the right language around sustainability to describe that space. So we’ll never say, this is an amazing project. We’re giving it an award when that project never addressed sustainability. So we’re trying to get consistency in that conversation. We’re working on advocacy right now, which means in all of these chapters, can we give them templates to allow them to build their own sustainability team so that they can start to advocate and champion around sustainability, but do it in a way that Boston chapter, the New England chapter talks about sustainability like the Northern California chapter talks about sustainability. And then obviously, we’re committed to knowledge and learning, and so we’re working really hard to create and curate a library of content.

[00:31:07.050] – Jon Strassner

But the challenge is that a lot of times we think that the best way to build credibility is with content. And I want to make sure that as we build our sustainability program, it’s an inclusive and accessible program. And I don’t want people to be we’re already overwhelmed. Everybody is overwhelmed. And so I don’t want people to think that if I want to be a part of ASID sustainability movement, I got to go get a certification or I got to get an extra 20 learning units every year. So we really want to have a cadence to the programming that we share with members so that they get a sense that there’s a progression it’s chronological, and we’re going to build it up, and we’re going to take them we’re all going to go. It’s a journey. Right. So that’s what we’re trying to do. Community based our goal.

[00:32:03.230] – Garr Punnett

Yeah. I love that. Parting thoughts and any last minute questions? What would you want to leave our audience with?

[00:32:13.560] – Jon Strassner

Well, I think that it’s a funny thing to talk about, but I’ve had a couple of conversations now with designers that talk about this white box, and designers always seem to feel like they have to start out with a white box. So a tenant moves into a new building, right. And the first thing we have to do is demo, even if you watch the HG shows. Right. Oh, the guy’s got the sledgehammer that’s demo part today. Yeah, it’s the fun part. I get to just knock the hell out of everything, and today I watched that. I’m like, oh, there’s just nothing wrong with those kitchen cabinets. I get it. I get it. Maybe they’re ugly, but man, dude, can’t we do something with those?

[00:33:05.050] – Garr Punnett

Some great woods, some great grain.

[00:33:08.830] – Jon Strassner

Yeah, can’t we do something to keep them out of the damn landfill? Right.

[00:33:13.940] – Garr Punnett

Right.

[00:33:14.830] – Jon Strassner

And I think that I would love to work with our design community to get them to think outside of that white box so that they walk into we did an episode with this guy. He is awesome. He runs a couple of different businesses. Russell Goldberg, I believe is his last name. Rucks Design is one of his businesses. Stick Bulb is a company of his that makes these beautiful lights out of the wood that’s repurposed from New York City water towers that you. See on the top of the buildings. And Russell first said to us, he said, there is an aesthetic to ethics. And he said, I think we should all be talking about the aesthetics of ethics, because doesn’t that have a beauty to it? And I think that’s what we need is we need designers to come into these buildings and say, it would be a lot easier for all of us to throw all this stuff away and start with a clean, white box, but let’s find the beauty in keeping some of this stuff out of the landfill and repurposing it. And can’t we find beauty in that narrative that has value in how we talk about design?

[00:34:52.670] – Garr Punnett

I love that I could not end that any better. I love that I was only introduced to how designers think about that white box only a couple of months ago. So that was fascinating then and again, to think that everyone wants to start from scratch. It’s like, Wait, we can slow down. There’s good bones here, and we can work with those bones. Yeah.

[00:35:16.870] – Jon Strassner

It’s a cultural thing, too, right? I think you go to Europe, and they talk about heirloom pieces, and they talk about some of the famous brands that are out there and how collectible they are, and you buy it, and you keep it forever.

[00:35:34.210] – Garr Punnett

Yes.

[00:35:34.810] – Jon Strassner

And you take good care of it, and you pass it on, and we just aren’t quite there yet in the US. For some reason. It’s like, you want to show status, you got to get all new stuff. Right. Don’t we have this weird when you see we call it Shabby chic, right? You see, like, old stuff. We don’t necessarily appreciate it. Like, we should we almost judge people a little bit. Look at that couch. Like, you can’t wow. Can’t you afford a new couch, man? Right?

[00:36:11.510] – Garr Punnett

Yes.

[00:36:12.360] – Jon Strassner

Fashion is the same thing.

[00:36:13.580] – Garr Punnett

It fashion is the same thing. Jon, thank you for all this insight, sharing all of this. I look forward to being on Break Some Dishes coming up.

[00:36:27.320] – Jon Strassner

We’re going to break some dishes with us.

[00:36:28.490] – Garr Punnett

We got let’s go break some dishes. Thanks for taking the time today.

[00:36:32.090] – Jon Strassner

Thanks, Garr. I appreciate it.