16. Jamie McCroskery on scaling a sustainability technology solution

Co-founder and CEO of Bluebird

Welcome to The Multi-usiverse. Alongside your guide, Garr Punnett, explore worlds of opportunity within the use of physical resources across companies and organizations. Consider this a field guide in scaling reuse, refurbishment, remanufacturing, and recirculation. We’ll learn from guests who have ventured down this path and carved their way. Our aim is to discuss the successes, opportunities, and challenges of scaling a connected, circular economy. On this episode, we’re joined by Jamie McCroskery, CEO of Bluebird Climate.

YouTube video

Audio Transcript:

Garr Punnett (00:07)

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Multiusiverse podcast. Happy Earth Week. This week is no different than usual. You get to talk to another innovative CEO. This time it’s Jamie McCroskery of Bluebird Climate, innovative software technology that’s focused on making better, sustainable and circular decisions for the CPG industry. We got to really dive into this episode and the details of what it means to again, grow a company that’s focused on really pioneering new things for sustainability decision making. Again, a great episode for Earth Week. We hope you’re going out there and maybe planting a tree or going out picking up some garbage. Either way, thanks for listening. And please, if you have any questions or you’d like to be on the podcast, please reach out to podcast@rheaply.com and we’ll see you on the next one. Jamie, thanks so much for joining us. Here on the Multiusiverse podcast, we have Jamie from Bluebird Climate. Tell us a little about yourself. Tell us, our listeners, what you’re up to over a Bluebird.

Jamie McCroskery (01:12)

Yeah. Garr, thanks for having me. My background in technology, I was a project manager at Dropbox. I had been interested in sustainability for quite some time, teach intro to backcountry skiing and rock climbing, mountaineering classes out in the Sierra and Cascades that see firsthand some of the climate impact that everyone gets pretty worked up about that.

Garr Punnett  (01:35)

As a city kid, I only hear about really that’s what you’re saying. I’m doing a lot, but I’m really just from the city.

Jamie McCroskery (01:41)

Yeah. Well, unfortunately, you can see the specs kind of wherever you are now, the entire West Coast covering Smoke for half the year. But yeah, I think before that started happening, I was personally motivated to start thinking about the stuff and kind of got this base. I had been leading the tech team at Glossy for a while and saw that they had this sustainability problem where all their customers were essentially hammering them on sustainability across Instagram. But no one internally kind of knew what to do about it. CPG and consumer brands are good.

Garr Punnett (02:15)

No, I want to stop real quickly, too, so that people can really understand the impact of what you’re saying there, which is Glossier being the makeup. And how else would you describe sort of what they focus on sort of consumer products around? Beauty?

Jamie McCroskery (02:33)

Yeah. They’re a beauty and wellness brand that was pretty hot for quite some time for the millennial and Gen Z audience and really how pioneered developing products with your customers. And Instagram was like a big part of them growing for a long time.

Garr Punnett (02:50)

And so what I loved hearing in that is that the Gen Z millennial audience basically was like, hey, we want more of what’s been going on from a sustainability standpoint. We want to know more about what you all were doing, which left a brand, as usual, going like, oh, we got to address this. We got to actually service our clients in that way. And then that’s where I interrupted. Is that’s really where you came in on this a little bit?

Jamie McCroskery (03:14)

Yeah. Exactly. What’s funny is brands are you’re trying to have some vision in the market and create your thesis, but ultimately you’re like meeting customers where they’re at. And it seemed like their customers were at starting to care about sustainability, which is not really like a competency. They also have millennials working inside who cared about it personally. But if you think about if you’re a consumer brand, you have a lot of products to launch. That’s a pretty tight calendar. And just now being asked to do carbon or waste calculations in real time with all your different ideas and then somehow communicate that to your customers pretty hard.

Garr Punnett (03:55)

Yeah. And help me better understand, because I think, again, I love the industry of which you come from in that way, when there’s tight product demand and tight schedules around delivery that does not allow itself or lend itself to diving further into the sustainability of these products and then being you’re almost playing the catch up, talk a little bit more about that process then of like, why is that so difficult when you’re delivering a product like a physical product?

Jamie McCroskery (04:22)

Yeah, totally. Even taking one step back. Physical products are fascinating for sustainability. If you look at consumer brands, 95% of carbon emissions come from the products, not like the electricity in the office. It’s like the product. If you’re making a beauty product, you have chemical Goop wrapped in paper, wrapped in plastic, wrapped in paper transport around the world a couple of times. And it’s pretty hard to figure out what sustainability even means or how you make decisions. So I think today, in large part, sustainability has become this kind of like orthogonal workflow. It’s like, okay, I’m going to go develop products, figure out marketing messaging, and then I’m going to figure out sustainability. But in reality, you’re making choices about the product throughout the entire product development cycle, all of which have impacts on sustainability. So what you really need is a way to inject sustainability to all those different decision points. So it’s no longer the separate thing. It’s just, okay, well, I’m going to develop product and know about sustainability when I’m bringing it to market.

Garr Punnett (05:25)

That really then drives what I loved hearing you talk about previously, actually, which was what is a sustainable product that’s I think what I love, too, in the era of which there’s much green washing in our industry, what drives the decision making or even the marketing of saying something is sustainable? You kind of have a nice thought on that, which is a kind of commonplace here, too, that there is no sustainable product. Right?

Jamie McCroskery (05:54)

Yeah. It’s the thing that everyone cares about sustainability. Everyone deeply cares about it. But, like, what is it? And also the fact they’re producing products. I mean, there might be some innovations out there that replenish the Earth in some way, but by virtue of taking some raw material and then transform it into a product people are using that has an environmental impact. So saying that product is sustainable, it’s a lot of impact. And that’s kind of the challenge here is that there’s innovation happening everywhere across the supply chain and transportation, materials manufacturing. Keeping track of that is really hard. And that also means that the bar for what sustainable means is also moving target. And that’s I didn’t mention this, but we work a lot with the founders of Patagonia Environmental Assessment Program, who essentially built the space for how to assess materials and products at scale really fast. And like, yeah, we’ve been trying to keep people forever. This is like a moving target. You’re not just dealing with it, which is daunting for a lot of brands aren’t thinking about it or thinking about something to solve. But it’s also an opportunity because you have this continual fountain of wins that you can find in your supply chain and celebrate those with customers.

Garr Punnett (07:15)

I love the way that you present that, which is this is an opportunity to further connect, further educate, and further sort of be a part of your consumers lives in that way of taking that journey along with them almost, if you’re speaking about it correctly and you’re presenting that information in a way that is almost tangible and digestible what has sort of gone into the work that you all have started to really pioneer in terms of making those dots a little bit easier, not only for the consumer, but really for those at the company level to try to actually be able to pull the right levels to make better decisions around these types of product decisions.

Jamie McCroskery (07:56)

Yeah. I guess I haven’t even really described what it is that we do have.

Garr Punnett (07:59)

We’re getting there in the shape of it.

Jamie McCroskery (08:02)

Yeah, exactly.

Garr Punnett (08:02)

We’re setting it up for Bluebird there.

Jamie McCroskery (08:05)

Yeah, 20 minutes and we’ll eventually tell people. But yeah, we essentially make software that brings the power of a sustainability team for consumer brands to make low carbon products. So this is in other words, we essentially have this product development platform, which really easy to produce low carbon products that are affordable, which is key because oftentimes faintly can be expensive. It doesn’t have to be. And then we also provide tools to translate that sustainability to customers and retailers so you can influence brand perception in an authentic way. A lot of the challenge that you’re talking about is sustainability is science, really. We’re talking about invisible gas that somehow weighs something. It does bad things to the environment. That’s something that consumers care about, but they do not understand it, nor do brands. And it’s this funny spacecard where it’s like brands ultimately listen to what retailers and consumers want. Retailers and consumers, like, vaguely know about sustainability and are asking for the wrong things, which then means that brands are asking the vendors for the wrong things, which means they’re asking the wrong material products the wrong things. And so we’re trying to build the tools where we’re kind of like helping brand and customers point the demand and anxiety of climate into the right innovation to layer into their products.

Garr Punnett (09:26)

Yeah. I mean, from what I’ve seen of the product from the previous conversations that you and I have had, it really does come down to making something real and visible so that more decisions can be made. And so when you start to make that intangible tangible and you’re saying, oh, yeah, all of this CO2 that’s in the air is caused by these types of five or six or however many decision criteria going into a certain product, then it almost becomes more obvious. Of course, everyone wants to make the best decision. It’s just how to make it. How do you actually empower them to say, oh, no, of course we want this. And yes, we understand that maybe this increases or decreases the product cost, but maybe it costs a half a cent more and some brands will make that decision and be like, oh yeah, that’s totally worth it. We can communicate that now more effectively to our consumers, and then the whole process is then better supported upstream and downstream. Am I sort of encapsulating that correctly?

Jamie McCroskery (10:25)

Yeah, totally. I mean, that thing I have to meet. So making things less subtract and complicated is the key of all this?

Garr Punnett (10:32)


Jamie McCroskery (10:34)

Which is a lot of what we do. We have these complex algorithms to take all the science and math and just say you’re doing good on carbon emissions and you could do better if you could use this packaging from this manufacturer. I think what’s super interesting here, Gar, is that we touched on some of the dynamics in the space and that you have some early adopters here. I often think about sustainability as a slow burn market that is going to catch on fire pretty fast at some point in the near future. A lot of our customers here, we’re working with beauty, counter function, beauty, glossy, and a bunch of our smaller kind of like insurgent brands in which sustainability is a cornerstone of their branding. It is their brand promise to their customers to be sustainable, however they defined it, and they use us to live up to that promise. So it’s super valuable. But the later adopters, you kind of have to figure out a way to either make their core workflow of getting a product on the door better and faster or save them cost or some other business driver which we have plans to unlock.

Garr Punnett (11:43)

But I bring that up because Rheaply has a very interesting alternative take. We’ve gone into like, okay, we’ll help these brands essentially build brand value and then ultimately save cost because we can do some fun things when you get to production products. But you guys have different approach yeah.

Jamie McCroskery (11:57)

And I appreciate the softball here, too, on the nice juxtaposition, which is yeah, we’re going the internal cost savings approach by saying, hey, stop doing the take make waste thing that you all do as an operation. How about you look at your own circularity and that also might better inform either your efficiencies within your organization or your downstream decision making with other vendors or even your upstream with original manufacturers or however that might be. But again, similarly, that it all starts with what’s made visible, how do you actually make because a lot of this is a problem that exists but doesn’t because you can’t see it. You didn’t know it was there. And so very much on our end, too, organizations don’t see that they’re wasting X amount of resources, piles of stuff every year, tons of stuff every year. They don’t see it. And so therefore, it’s not in the data, which means to them it’s like, oh, it’s not there. It’s not a real problem. Unfortunately. I think in a lot of what we do, it comes with a little bit of a cost of recognition of, oh, this is the actual problem.

Jamie McCroskery (13:17)

And so that’s always been interesting for us to say, hey, everything you’re doing from an ESC perspective is amazing. Everything you’re doing from waste reduction for your consumers is amazing. But have you thought about yourself? And then that often sort of leads to a head scratch of like, oh, my gosh, there’s so much more impact internally than we even realized, which is a fun conversation to have because it needs to come with zero shame as well, which I’m sure is probably an element of how you both communicate to brands and communicate to consumers. Right?

Garr Punnett (13:46)

No. Yeah. Well, first of all, we’re both in the market building business here. It’s not like companies are producing like a different competitive version, okay. Now we’re going to place it with something that’s slightly better and that’s Rheaply, they’re like learning about what the space is the same for us, which makes for interesting go to market and sell strategy because there is a lot of we essentially had to build a lot of product that just like teases value. Like, hey, you know, this A, this isn’t as hard as you thought it was. B, here is value that you can get there. It actually is very hidden, too. A lot of companies, because they’ve been in existence maybe doing things are actually pretty good from a sustainability perspective. They’re just doing this offer essentially highlight these hidden wins, which creates the carrot internally for a lot of these brands to then make future investments because they understand it’s like a new labor to develop relationship with customers.

Jamie McCroskery (14:51)

I love that position. You’re right. Because it’s like you may not know actually, again, just as much as there’s hidden negative impact, there could be hidden positive. And you kind of have to go down this journey to find that. How do you even start that conversation with a brand of how do you go to market and say, hey, this is the reality, this is who we are. This is how we can help on reapply’s end. We’re typically we have to elbow out some budget room. We have to really work with some stakeholders and create that opportunity. How have you find that that’s changed over sort of the growth of the company, the growth of your team? How have you found that that’s the best way to communicate to your clients?

Garr Punnett (15:28)

Yeah, I think sustainability is if I personally had to grow quite a bit as a founder in this space. My training is as a product manager. So I’m not a consultant with dozens of companies. Like go find the problem for a customer and then you go solve it. Yes, but what happens if the customer doesn’t realize they have a problem or it’s like slow? The market is changing so fast that everyone there’s this amorphous space where people are at different stages of complexity and maturity and are all asking for different things. I actually just got an email from Walmart and Harry’s and whoever else asking for different things because they all have different like every brand and retailers a special Snowflake, which means that as a company, we have to have to be super opinionated about what we are doing and what we are not doing. It also means the way to be open minded and meet brand where they’re at and not have that sort of shaming mindset, especially around sustainability. Like, the goal is to Mark in the right direction and have to help your business at the same time, not just be perfect.

Garr Punnett (16:38)

What’s critical there, too, is that you don’t have to be perfect. Actually.

Jamie McCroskery (16:43)

Yes. And again, that’s probably the best way to start there too, is communicating that there again, no perfection. It’s all a journey. There’s never going to be a destination. It’s all about iterating slowly and getting better over time. But how do you start to who are you going to how are you communicating this to those clients? That’s been such a fun journey on our end to realize, oh, it is not just one department’s problem. I mean, we might start in sustainability, but we’ll end up in finance or we’ll end up in procurement or surplus or some other disposition or waste management category. What have you found in that way where you say, oh, the sustainability stakeholder came, but boy, there’s a whole another conversation to be having operations. How have you seen that evolve?

Garr Punnett (17:29)

Yeah, totally. And I think the sustainability profession and departments within these companies is undergoing a rapid change. Historically, you can tell a lot by where that function sits. Is it under marketing or PR? Is it under HR? Is it under supply chain? And so I think that the challenge is and this is where the Patagonia team has come in quite a bit because they have consultant space for decades. For us, it’s been a challenge to figure out, okay, we roughly know that what type of customer segments has different problems. But navigating the organization is extremely difficult for this kind of stuff because sustainability is narrowly UN owned. And if it’s owned by sustainability team, they might not be empowered in the organization especially. We’re talking about marketing and supply chain product development. They’re like, on the sidelines historically, and how to shout in and tell people to do the right things from an advisory capacity in that way.

Jamie McCroskery (18:27)

But yeah, exactly, exactly.

Garr Punnett (18:30)

And having an advisory capacity is great. But also, if you’re trying to make real time decision about your products, you can’t afford to have one person there, like at every single meeting. So it’s been interesting because every time we talk to sustainability, oh, my God, this helps scale our team so much. But at the same time, for us, we also know that budget is in marketing for this kind of stuff. Honestly, it’s been like a pretty circuitous journey. And it’s actually been one of the biggest challenges for our company is like figuring out what that playbook looks like and where we’ve started is the reason we actually have a pilot program here is to work with a bunch of these companies in the space to figure out what these patterns look like. It’s been easiest to meet companies who already really believe in this stuff or looking for a solution because they’re really on the cutting edge. And you’re essentially just solving something from there, you know, exists that then empowers us because our brands are talking about us to then show the later doctor brands like, oh, there are different ways of developing products that have to be sustainable as well.

Garr Punnett (19:35)

And, oh, it’s not too expensive for us. Rather than having to make that argument myself, there’s a fast follower effect.

Jamie McCroskery (19:43)

I love that because again, even when brands are looking at one another, we still have to learn from someone on how to speak to different structures or different hierarchies of certain larger clients. It’s been one of our early on for us, we kind of identified. All right. Our biggest problem might be that we can’t learn enough, fast enough. And it’s like in order to do that, we need to be working with people, which is great. Why pilots are super important is we can do a pilot. We can work with an organization to figure out how they work. But we actually had to evolve to a model which has been very successful for us, which is actually offering now a consultancy type of offering, because what ends up happening is even in a pilot scenario, we found and I loved this for our team because it was such an evolution where even in a pilot, we found that some of the doors still remained closed. But by simply getting a contract going, those doors would actually open up to more of our team members to explore and collaborate with organizations in ways that actually lend itself to being able to further ideate, further create, connect with more stakeholders, and then know, oh, wait, this is how this works to exactly your point earlier, because sustainability sits under this Department.

Jamie McCroskery (20:55)

This is maybe how we have to communicate to this type of organization. So that was enormously helpful for us to learn. I’d say early on we really started this probably last year, and it’s been enormously helpful for us to just weave our way through an organization to understand, okay, we’re in this together. We’re partners. We can figure this out. We just have to really work and ideate together.

Garr Punnett (21:15)

Totally. So I think for us, we’ve been super lucky in finding those pilot customers who are so motivated to see the space change and evolve into something better that they’re willing to engage with on a weekly basis, give us all their data all the time in the world or for all their brothers.

Jamie McCroskery (21:33)


Garr Punnett (21:34)

Yeah. I actually really would recommend for any early stage software company thinking about sustainability. Obviously you want to build software, that’s what your business is going to be around and you want to be consultancy. But I would recommend doing the consulting because you’re really going to learn about the problems and like what you can and can’t automate it fast.

Jamie McCroskery (21:54)

I think it’s also fascinating from our standpoint because and this is getting into the nitty gritty of scaling a software company. It’s sometimes easier to get a certain contract through a PO or through some sort of what other contracting vehicle they might have. It might be easier to do that first, then get what typically might also be like a master services agreement or also known as an MSA with a larger organization. So I love your advice there. For any other startup in Circularity, listening to this is like, think about the ways that you can decrease your own friction to learning more, collaborating more, and then you can work on all of those learnings applied to the software. That’s the whole point. But I could not recommend that more. I think it’s been enormously helpful for us.

Garr Punnett (22:40)

Yeah, go ahead.

Jamie McCroskery (22:42)

No, this was going to be mostly about sort of how you’re growing the team and how you’re seeing sort of the team evolved in that way and how the products going. I’d love to learn more about sort of what you all see next on the horizon and how you’ve really started to take it to the next level.

Garr Punnett (22:58)

Yeah, our team is so funny. It’s like the Motley crew that needs to come together to make this kind of work. There’s a reason why partially the market is returning. Partially you need like this crazy Disparate skill set. So we have they all have design Kickstarters and co founder from Unilever, who knows supply chain sustainability people from Rag and Bone and Levi’s. And then we have software engineers. So we have a product design, engineering, supply chain, sustainability coming together. And we have a pretty tight knit team that works pretty heavily with advisers actually in the space. So we work with a lot of Patagonia Levi’s people, and that’s way income. The idea is like, to your point about moving fast. Your core advantage of startup is learning fast and moving fast. And eventually you want to get to the point where you’re trying to scale, but especially when you’re early trying to creatively problem solve and do customer discovery. You have to keep the team lean and learn. And ideally, you have customers there to help you. Yeah. So you’re about halfway through this pilot program here. We’re getting active feedback on a weekly basis, which is great, I think just give you some sense of the successes thus far, because that’s ultimately what we care about.

Garr Punnett (24:19)

We’ve helped some brands reduce cognition by products like 78% and like 100 of the time. That’s obviously, like some of these are small brands can make choices really fast, but they’re essentially using our software to evaluate the plethora of options they have between packaging formats, material, the vendor locations, manufacturing processes, and then asking their vendors say, hey, we predefined what we know is sustainable here, and we have some cost parameters. Can you make it happen? And so it shortcuts them, essentially evaluating all tons and tons and tons of options out there for their products. And they know what they want. So that’s been awesome. I think what we’re doing ultimately is trying to make this not a decision making tool, but actually a tool to make it easier to just produce products. So the idea is we’re actually working with co manufacturers and vendors now on board them onto the platform so that our brand can collaborate with them in real time. That’s really on this stuff. The idea is like, okay, instead of saying, hey, switch to PCR plastic produced in the US, which is like a really dumb example, here it is. And also we have some financing tools that’s cheaper than you otherwise would be able to get.

Garr Punnett (25:26)


Jamie McCroskery (25:29)

Providing an operational software that can really say, hey, this isn’t where necessarily you’re looking at the data, then going back to the team and making that decision, you can actually take a hold of that decision making on platform and sort of do that as a team. That’s the idea.

Garr Punnett (25:47)

That’s the idea you go back to what I was mentioning earlier, which is like sustainability historically has been this orthogonal workflow. Like, oh, my God, we don’t want to worry about it. Can you go calculate carbon emissions and then put on a yearly basis or whatever? We’re embedding sustainability into the product development process. And so the idea is like, just make the product development process better and also layer in sustainability visibility and lower some of those barriers around knowledge and cost so that’s just way easier to make these products. And oh, by the way, now we also have marketing and production people on the same platform for the first time and can see the specs and the marketing message you can say around sustainability.

Jamie McCroskery (26:22)

Question that you can answer or not. But I’m curious what the pricing models look like. How are you sort of thinking through user access, permissions types of things where for anybody listening, it’s a reality of creating software of like, how do you both generate revenue from a staff perspective but then also gate access appropriately to those that might be most impactful and less impactful to the growth of your product?

Garr Punnett (26:49)

That is such a good question. This is the second reason why the program is so awesome. You get customer feedback on your product to make your product awesome, but also you get customer feedback on your business model. And we’re going to kind of book talking to a bunch of pricing people, think about pricing levels while you package things, especially in a market that’s new where customers aren’t used to spending money on this stuff. So we’re actually working with that with our customers. But broadly, the way it’s going to work is like this is a multi sided we’re essentially building a multi sided marketplace here. So the idea is like build demand by making it really easy for brands to figure out how to make decisions and it’s way easier. And also they can’t be really expensive because brands have never done this before. So you’re essentially showing them this new way of thinking, make it easy because it’s already hard. And then if they want to market that, we know that’s really valuable to them. So you can charge extra for that on a retaining so fast basis because you have to keep claims live, update with data.

Garr Punnett (27:57)

To me, that’s all in service of building a lot a huge data mode for us because I’m getting into strategy here. But the idea is we know what product development calendars are for these brands, what products are producing when, what they need, what their sustainability profiles are. We also know now who sells, what cost and what their stability profiles of those vendors are. And so the idea is then connect them. And that’s where you can enable a way larger business model. It’s not just fast because I got marketplace well and I love that.

Jamie McCroskery (28:31)

So goes along with a lot of what we’re thinking about too, is as we begin to know more, it starts to become and I’m not putting too fine of a point on this, but predictive to a certain degree of saying, hey, by making these choices, this is what you’re going to see. These are the other decisions that you could be making that’s going to affect product builds, launches, whatever it’s going to be. And for us, that’s super important because the way we’re thinking about it, too, on our end getting into some future strategy stuff is all right. We know generally now procurement and disposition schedules for furniture, for some types of FF and E category furniture, fixtures and equipment, just for those that are listening. And how do we start to better predict when those are going to be dispositioned, how they’re being depreciated in terms of their value? Better educate the market a little bit on the decisions that need to be made to make the most sustainable in quotes decisions, but really the best, less impactful decisions around where something goes.

Garr Punnett (29:33)

Yeah, I think the data here, you’re always trying to do something in service of the next thing and ultimately have an opinion about the amount of problem that you’re trying to solve and the vision you’re trying to build, which again, sustainability is so important because there are so many things you could do for us. We essentially have a thesis here that like, hey, as I mentioned earlier, brands are essentially not sure where to put their demand for sustainable product inputs. And there are a whole lot of actual solutions out there in the market today. That’s why the price of recycled plastic and are getting caught in like a billion X. But if you look at like what’s happening upstream, the technology exists to decarbonise a lot of these products using renewable energy in a yard weaving factory, for example. That thing is economically viable, but no one knows to ask for it or that stuff.

Jamie McCroskery (30:31)

Yeah. It’s the visibility question. Absolutely. Yeah. I think what I love about that, too is and I hope what you all will likely be involved in, too, is your point about recycled plastic, Virgin plastic or new plastic is so crazy where those are some really complicated economic drivers around who’s paying for recycled plastic and why and how much there is, how much there is of it, which is again, another crazy economic sort of complication where it’s like there’s going to be a point very soon where that price for recycled plastic is going to go up. So you might as well start really maintaining your supply chains now around recycled plastic, because that’s going to be quite competitive in the next two to three or four years around that demand for recycled plastic.

Garr Punnett (31:27)

Yeah. It’s actually pretty brutal already. But yeah.

Jamie McCroskery (31:32)

If you hear that, then it’s already starting.

Garr Punnett (31:35)

Yes. Which is good and bad. I mean, it’s good because the demand is there and supply hasn’t caught up for a whole host of reasons. But it also means those are barriers for brands adopting these things. Don’t want to pass on cost of customers, especially when inflation. So it’s an interesting time. I think like we’re in the market creation business, both on education, but also upstream invisibility, hey, there’s these other materials or allies that are efficient and decarbonised that you should invest in. Yes.

Jamie McCroskery (32:05)

To all of that, we have learned so much already to encapsulate sort of everything here too of a nice call to action for both brands that might find this of interest or consumers that want to know more or even somebody looking to support Bluebird. What do you see as a call to action here for the listener to say? All right, this is how maybe you should get involved further or this is what we’re looking into. What do you have to say for that listener?

Garr Punnett (32:34)

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I’m so glad you’re interested in learning more at blueberry here. I’m always interested in talking to people about their consumers or brands who are trying to get started or take their sustainability programs next level, like really operationalize this stuff. So yeah, I think just get in touch. You reach me at jamie@bluebirdclimate.com. We also have a newsletter that’s like starting to have somewhat increased velocity with some of the learnings we have in this space. From the top, we’ve learned a lot. There’s a lot of things you can do today that actually cut costs, for example and carbon emissions, especially around transportation. So we’re sharing those but mostly I’m not entirely sure who’s in the audience. There are some things you can just get started with today that you can ask your manufacturers for. Otherwise, please just get in touch. I’m happy to talk about this stuff all day.

Jamie McCroskery (33:26)

Well, I love that. And again, call to action to get in touch with Jamie also. So appreciate again, we’re trying to do the same thing always, which is not just learn in a vacuum but try to get more people involved by sharing what we’re learning because even though that might be counterintuitive to some intellectual property, it still is so important to grow our message, to grow our market in that way because again, we’re pushing the market forward. So the more people that join, the more people that learn, the more people that push that conversation, the better. Well, Jamie, thanks so much for joining us today. I look forward to our next conversation.

Garr Punnett (34:06)

Likewise Garr appreciate the opportunity. You’re you.

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